Joe van Niekerk Interview: “My last six months as a player inspired me to pursue a spiritual life”
Joe van Niekerk now lives on Rama Organica farm in Costa Rica following his retirement in 2014
Credit: @junglejoe333/Instagram
When a double Heineken Cup winner and 52-cap Springbok retires, what should he do after his playing career ends? Coaching would be your safest bet, as would rugby punditry on a major media outlet.
Starting a business? Little more unconventional, but not out of the ordinary.
Becoming an administrator in the game? Agustin Pichot and Bill Beaumont would testify it’s an exciting career move after their roles with World Rugby.
What about living on an organic farm in the Costa Rican jungle? It sounds unconventional, but it is where former South Africa international Joe van Niekerk now lives and works.
Rama Organica is a cigarette, drug, and alcohol free community that offers guests ‘transformational retreats’ and its former rugby superstar resident shares its ethos of eating off the land and using plant-based medicines.
Van Niekerk is thoughtful, passionate and has that type of enthusiasm that rubs off on people. He smiles a lot, is engaging and says he feels “blessed” for his career quite a bit during our talk.
It does him a slight disservice after years of devoting himself to the game and training incredibly hard, almost as if he was fortunate for his success.
After all, he captained one of the greatest sides in European rugby history and was South Africa Player of the Year in 2002, something that doesn’t happen to everyone.
Early beginnings and South Africa debut
A late bloomer, he only got into the game properly aged 14 while at King Edward VII School in Johannesburg.
At the school, which also produced fellow sportsmen like Bryan Habana, Graeme Smith and Quinton de Kock, he started his budding rugby journey on the wing.
Van Niekerk was then moved to prop, then lock, before he gradually found his way to a natural home in the back row.
He himself admitted: “First few times I played, I just remember a couple of times getting the ball and actually running completely sideways. The guys would be saying 'run straight! Run straight!'
“I was trying to dodge guys. It was all learning obviously. I was put into the second row. I was 15 years old and I had one of those leather headbands.
“Remember Adriaan Richter? It was like that. He played for the Springboks and was at the Bulls for years. He used to have this kind of leather headband for his ears.
Van Niekerk gathers the ball during the Pool C Rugby World Cup match between Georgia and South Africa at the Allianz Stadium in Sydney 24 October 2003.
Credit: AFP/Damien Meyer
“I adopted it straight away. My second year playing rugby, I was put into the second row. I just really absolutely loved that year of rugby as I totally embraced it
“I loved being in the forwards even then. I felt like I was more involved in the game and definitely moved in that direction from then onwards.
“I was put into the school first team. They were playing me blindside flank and then I stayed in the back row from then on.
“I really love playing both blindside as well as eight. I managed to get into the provincial team, which back then was known as Transvaal.
“We played our schoolboy domestic competition, which was the Craven Week, and off that I was selected to play for the South African Schools team.
“That was the first time in that competition that I realised 'wow, okay, there is a possibility here for me to continue with the sport I absolutely adore’.
“I had so much passion for the game; I still have the same passion. I absolutely love the contact and I love to be out there with your mates.
“The tussle that you have every game when someone dominates you or you dominate them. Luckily enough, genetically, I had a bit of a bit of pace.
“I was able to perceive certain things before they could manifest on the field.
“From a very young age, I'd always been involved in athletics [he ran the 400, 200 and 100 metres and when he was 17, he high jumped over 2m].
“I'd always been doing a lot of running and stamina training and back in the days at school.
“Because I was a boarder at school, we used to play boarders vs boarders. We used to dump each other in the rain every single day.
Joe Van Niekerk takes on Rico Gear in the Tri Nations match between the New Zealand and South Africa at Carisbrook Stadium in 2005
Credit: Phil Walter/Getty Images
“From those very early years, I think there was always a want for training, wanting to be physically fit and then being on the pitch. That would always make things a lot easier.
“In the later years, as I came into the Springbok team, we started to learn more about the running lines and the technical side. I think there are certain things that we are gifted with from a very young age.
“One of those things for me was just to be able to read where the space was or being able to tackle, offload. Little skills like that which, thank god, they were there.”
His rise was rapid after starring for the South Africa Schools, the Under-19 and Under-21 sides, captaining at all three levels.
Van Niekerk received the rare honour of being called up to the Springboks directly from the U21 side in 2001, after he was named Player of the Tournament at SANZAR/UAR U21 Championships that year.
This was in spite of never having played a senior game in either the Currie Cup or Super 12. But crucially, he had the ability, confidence and drive to swim rather than sink.
Springbok debut and the 2003 World Cup
Future World Cup-winning coach of the Springboks Jake White was assistant to the national team head honcho Harry Viljoen in 2001.
The pair had noticed van Niekerk’s meteoric rise and immediately brought him into the senior squad.
They threw him into the most daunting debut possible, facing the All Blacks in a Tri Nations game in the cauldron of Newlands. No pressure then.
“It was because Rassie Erasmus got injured that I managed to get selected into the squad for the very first time in 2001,” he said.
“When you get selected in and you see all these legends who you've looked up for years before. It was kind of surreal.
“Being selected and having not played any kind of senior rugby, I had to pinch myself.
“I remember the first training session with all of these beasts and top players that have played World Cups and I was there with them.
“It was tough to keep your feet on the ground. If you arrive at that point and then you don't have the goods, you can be a one hit wonder. I was blessed to be able to occupy the space and just stay in the mix.
"One of them that stood out was Joost van der Westhuizen, even back then. He was a perfectionist. It was that kind of energy that he held. He was a senior player having won the World Cup in 1995.”
Sadly, legendary scrum-half van der Westhuizen lost his life after a courageous battle with Motor Neurone Disease in 2017.
Van Niekerk continued: “The whole process he went through was so hard and I truly believe that he's transitioned into a better place now. I'm sure he went through a ton of hardship once he got diagnosed.
“The work that he did in those years once being diagnosed was huge. The different charities that he formed and created…he gave so much, even in the state that he was in.
Joost van der Westhuizen, who died due to MND disease complications in 2017, helped his Springboks side to a stunning win in the 1995 Rugby World Cup final
Credit: Reuters: Ian Waldie
“I just had so much respect for him and obviously, as a number nine, he was just so special. I think he would make all-time world teams. For me, he was one of the best ever.
“I always felt that presence when he was there. His excellence. Even in the drills and training, the quality of a player that he was and the leadership he held; you could feel it.
“Certain loose forwards which I looked up to was Andre Vos, Andre Venter, both of them were monstrous.
“In the years before that I had watched them play test rugby. Another loose forward was Bobby Skinstad, who I had a lot of respect for.
“I just loved the way he played the game, being very roving and free. The offloads and the finesse, that kind of style was good to watch. Those are the kind of the men that I looked up to in that squad.
“The belief the trainers and the coaches had in me gave me confidence. You're the new kid on the block but I was fortunate enough to be selected with a very good friend of mine in Marius Joubert.
“We were very tight and came in at the same time. Those years from 2000 to 2005 were really special, just from a personal perspective. Obviously, with the game come so many different injuries and things like that.
“There's so many challenges and adversity and things that you have to come through.
“I am really thankful for my time and specifically those big matches. Playing games against the All Blacks and it's just a full 80 minutes of nonstop rugby.
“I really hold those memories close to the heart, especially when we came out of those games on top. I was so driven to play against the All Blacks. England too, of course.
“Every time we came to Twickenham it was one of the hardest games of the season. With Jonny Wilkinson, Lawrence Dallaglio and those players, they were phenomenal.
“We went through a period where we weren't winning predominantly most of our matches, until Jake White took over the team.
“He started to build a team that had this core nucleus of senior players that he and the rest of the team worked around.
“That really led up to the team winning in 2007 at the World Cup in France. The period I played in, there were a lot of ins and outs.
“Guys had a few test matches and they were rotated. There wasn't a lot of consistency in that time.
“It was the Kamp Staaldraad era but things just shifted. I think that group of veteran players or senior players; Jake kind of got the best out of them and created that foundation for the World Cup in 2007.”
Missing the 2007 South Africa World Cup win
In 2002, ‘Big Joe’ was named South Africa's Player of the Year and one of the International Rugby Board's five players of the year.
He was undoubtedly of the Springboks best players in a slightly disappointing 2003 World Cup campaign for the team, bagging three tries in as many matches before injury against Samoa ruled him out of the quarter-final against New Zealand.
A typical van Niekerk performance would see him hitting the gain line time and time again. He would cover every blade of grass, either carrying the ball or smashing those who had it.
This all-action style of play took its toll on his body, with a back injury also ruling him out of the 2007 edition of the tournament, which South Africa won by beating England 15-6 in the final.
Under the man who helped bring him into the national team setup in the first place, Jake White, he surely would have been on the plane to France and added a World Cup medal to his significant trophy cabinet.
“It was pretty difficult to face in a way because I had been with the team all the way along and then in the camp before in the international games and then the World Cup,” he said.
“I got injured and I hurt my lower back. Part of the reason why I did is because whatever the coach wants, I was wanting to prove to him that I could do it as his standards were very high.
“There were specific conditions that we had to achieve, just to be in the squad. For three months before all I had been doing was going in the gym.
“I had a personal trainer that became the trainer for the national team and I was training with him every single day. We had to achieve certain weights for the bench-press.
“I literally took that on board and I was just like, 'I've got to push this weight and I've got to get this' I got really strong and but then in some sense, I was a little bit too big for my actual frame.
“In those first training camps, when we were doing the testing, I pushed the weights and felt a tweak in my lower back.
“It was my disc pushing up on the nerve. What that lesson taught me is stick to what your strengths are. As players, we've all got our gifts.
“One of the traits of a good eight man is being solid and being able to make meters. That's a completely different player to more modern roving number eight, with maybe more skills and speed.
“Concentrate on what your strengths are.
"You can get better at your so called weaknesses but if you've got pace, you've got skills and you've got a step, then focus on those things and become the absolute best at those.
“There was a want to get stronger. It became like an obsession in a way and I just said, 'I'm going to push this weight, no matter what'
“I pushed the weight easily, but ended up trying to improve aspects of my game but I don't know if it was beneficial in the end.
“Youngsters growing up, if you're in a specific position and you've got certain strengths, just focus on those strengths as much as you can.
“That's not to say that you shouldn't look at your weaknesses, but just continue with your strengths because that will make you unique.
“Had I listened to those words back, I may have gone to the 2007 World Cup. If you ask me now do I regret it, I don't. I've worked on myself as well to let that go. I was mates with all of those guys.
“They went on to win the World Cup I honestly was super stoked for them. Would I have loved to be there? Of course. I kind of just like to let that go, you know?”
One man who passed him by was Eddie Jones, who’s appointment by White as a technical advisor ahead of the World Cup was a “masterstroke” according to van Niekerk.
“He has a similar kind of philosophy of creating that team dynamic where you've got that core group of players,” he said.
“He's the top and obviously has a really good relationship with the players. It seems like he really knows how to get the best out of them and psychologically, he knows how to motivate them.
Eddie Jones in his role as a technical advisor for South Africa during the 2007 Rugby World Cup
Credit: Getty Images
“Jones knows how to direct them and guide them in a really amazing way. Obviously the banter that comes with him...It's really a massive job, England head coach.
“Just going back to the 2019 World Cup, that match against the All Blacks was monstrous. I actually thought England going into the final, the way it went didn't really do it justice.
“England didn't lose a game all the way to the final. Australia, the All Blacks, it was almost one step too far in the end.
“If they had if they had won against South Africa, it would have gone down in history. To pitch up and play those nations in a sequence, to win it would have been one of the best.”
Back to 2007 and Europe was calling for van Niekerk. Premiership giant Northampton Saints announced they had signed him in May, only to pull out of the deal by Christmas citing injury issues.
He reportedly threatened legal action against the club before going on to pass a medical with the Golden Lions and remain in South Africa for the 2008 season.
On the failed move, he said: “When I got the offer from Saints, it was actually a gift from the heavens. I had come through a lot. I'd been injured and basically had to go back to the drawing board
“I went over to the club and did a medical. I went with my mum and at that point, everything was perfect. A couple of weeks after that, we didn't get correspondence.
“At that point in time I realised there's something else going on here. They got a new Director of Rugby, Jim Mallinder. and the team was relegated to the First Division for the following season.
“I'm not sure what happened behind the scenes but something came up that, medically, I wasn't fit. It wasn't true because I played about 130 games after that just for Toulon.
“I realised that they were pulling out of the contract. They were citing that it was for medical reasons. For me, it was a blow because at that point in time, I didn't have a contract.
“I wasn't getting contracted by the Springboks either at that point, I was injured, and the contract with the Saints fell through. It was really back against the wall.
It was stated I had a back issue, which at the time I did but before I was definitely on the way to recovery. I had a lot of rugby left in me.
“Who knows what that journey would have been would have been like if I had joined Saints. I was confused.
“At 27, I had to dig deep and I went back to basics. I started training really hard, just eating perfectly, all of the processes to get back in.
“I got a lifeline from my old coach, Eugene Eloff, at the Golden Lions in Johannesburg.
“He said, 'Come back, yeah, you can play per match and we'll get you back. You'll start playing again' so I made the move.
“I was lucky enough to be selected back into the Springbok team and play a 50th Test match. I was super blessed by the way it all worked.
“It was pretty daunting because I was supposed to come for three years and had it all lined up.
“Part of the fact that maybe they weren't getting the funding because they were relegated that season. We were chatting with the club about that before there could be this relegation.
“I'd always been selected for teams before and I'd always had a contract. It was confusing, but forced me to look inward.”
Toulon, two Heineken Cups and Mourad Boudjellal
The move to Europe eventually came, joining nouveau riche Toulon in 2008 after their promotion to the Top 14.
“The weather was a little bit better! I think several of my teammates would agree. Jonny Wilkinson, Simon Shaw, Paul Sackey, they definitely loved the move out there,” van Niekerk remembers.
“Moving to the south of France was like a breath of fresh air, it was the renaissance of my career.
“A lot of things were said in the press and in the media, some negative things and not always the truth, but once I left South African to go over to France I felt like this is a new chapter in life.
“Going to France was a completely different life. Culturally, the French language is obviously hard to grasp.
“It takes time. Some boys had been there for a very long time and there were basically two phrases they could say: 'bonjour' and 'merci beaucoup'
“It took some time to really grasp the language. I'm so grateful for my time there and some of the players that I met were top class, just as human beings. What incredible human beings.”
It brought him into close contact with eccentric Toulon owner and president Mourad Boudjellal, a colourful character (just ask Julian Savea) who made his millions in comic books.
Van Niekerk said: “He did a huge amount for the for the town itself. There were some pretty crazy things that happened that I had never experienced, coming from where I did.
“Are you going to get paid this week if you don't play well? Things like that. He himself was learning the process of being the president too
“When I came over there was Tana Umaga, George Gregan, Victor Matfield and so there was really high calibre players.
“He somehow managed to lure those players to come and play. He was the one behind the marquee signings like Sonny Bill Williams.
“If I look back now, there were different phases of his tenure. We went through a stage where we lost 11 matches in a row and we were 14th in the ladder.
“Tana Umaga was the coach and we built back up. We came through a really tough period where the club could have been relegated.
“We got together as a team and we managed end the 2008/09 season 9th on the ladder and stayed in the Top 14. That did wonders for the whole club. He was really motivated to win trophies.
“He was an enigmatic character. I always had good rapport with him. I always felt he backed me as a player and I think that helped me a lot in the process.
“We really constructed this team foundation that had this nucleus of players from all over the world which was another challenging thing. "
“To get that streamlined, that focus, that determination to want to play for the jersey, I think that stemmed from the core group of players.
van Niekerk and Bakkies Botha celebrate securing a Top 14 playoff place in 2012
Credit: Getty Images
“Mourad selected with Tana Umaga and then Philippe Saint-Andre after that. They bought certain players like Carl Hayman, Jonny Wilkinson, really top quality players.
“Tana Umaga was the actual coach when I got there. He was still playing some games at 38 years old. Jerry Collins was the captain before and for that run, the team didn't have the best results.
“Tana said, 'Hey, Joe, we want you to be the captain.' I just embraced the role completely because before that, I always felt I had some leadership abilities but it never really fully manifested.
“When I got the chance, I was really living my life like in a clean way. I was integral in that team and part of the camaraderie of the brothers.
“When I looked around with this array of different players, in that way it was pretty challenging. We had players from all over mixed in with the French guys.
“The French people are very passionate and specifically when there's some word said or there was a late tackle, even when we were doing contact training.
“We would have contact sessions and then it would breakout like a full on fist fight. Every time there was something that needed to be worked out, it would be.
“Tana would be like, 'Okay, well, if you want to go to each other, you go and let's work this all out'.
“If there's some energy that needs to be worked out, let it be worked out. I think that was excellent. The guys get to a point where it is aggressive.
“But then it's like, 'Okay, cool. We've gone through what we needed to get out, now we move on'.
“We had amazing characters, with such class. As a leader of a team, with some of the best players in the world, there's always the standard.
“They pitch up with this kind of attitude that they've been doing this for years.
“I remember watching my very first game at Toulon against Stade Francais. I'm sitting there with my now ex-girlfriend and I'm watching my very first Top 14 match live.
“All of a sudden just before halftime, this massive brawl breaks out from a scrum. For some reason I focued on the the scrum-half Norman Jordaan, a South African number nine.
“He basically ran and one of the players came towards him, putting up his fists and he just dropped this guy. He went to another, dropped another one, two guys down.
“He came through and then you see this prop walking towards him like he wants a fight and then you see them look at each other and they shake their heads, and then the gloves go down.
“They just look at each other and its like, 'okay, no, we won't fight against each other, its okay'
“They were mauling each other on the ground. The one prop, David Banquet, was literally strangling this guy on the floor.
“I'm sitting in the stand just thinking, 'Oh my gosh, what have I got myself into?' This is going to be a nightmare, if every game was like this.
“The ref is beeping but these big dudes are just going at each other. To experience that for the very first time in the Top 14 felt like the real deal.
“I can honestly say that kind of ethos and that kind of energy was a factor that helped the team to go in for greater heights.
“The mere fact that Jonny would be there for hours afterwards, that kind of legacy, energy and tone you set for the rest of the team.
“The senior core can really lead those games when we were in that range of either losing or winning. That's really going to help that team be solid for years and years, which we were.
“From their mere work ethic, they completely rubbed off on the whole team. As a captain of the team when these guys came in, it was kind of an easy job.
“When Jonny came into the team, he galvanised us with his energy, along with his excellence. As a captain, it's so easy when you've got Jonny Wilkinson in the team because you can build pressure with three points.
“I knew wherever we had it on the pitch; he's going to nail it. It was a massive benefit having a player of his ability in the team.”
In six years of service, van Niekerk saw the Boudjellal Toulon project reach its crowning moment; back to back European Cups in 2013 and 2014.
On the first win, an iconic 16-15 win against French rivals Clermont, he says: “After an accumulation of many years in the game and working really hard, those things aligned to come off.
“In that final we had Bernard Laporte as the coach and he really got the most out of the players.
“He was a fine, fine coach and just really knew how to motivate the guys and how to how to get the best out of them.
“It was absolutely epic winning that final and I'll never forget that moment. It was just really surreal to be out there you know and winning the trophy, going through it and I just felt really blessed.
“The night out was class, it was like three nights out! The Heineken Cup was always the premier competition in Europe and I think winning that really set the tone for the years to come.
“It showed the massive belief in that team, in the structure that we were playing.
“It was just so amazing to share it with guys like Chris Masoe, Bakkies Botha, and Carl Hayman. I was really, really proud to be part of that team and just come through it in that way.”
Joe van Niekerk and Jonny Wilkinson lift the 2013 Heineken Cup
Credit: David Rogers/Getty Images
Retirement and Costa Rica
“For me it was a process, definitely,” the 52 cap Springbok muses about his inevitable retirement in 2014.
“You start to see certain signs as you go in the process.
“I started to become much more aware of the aches and pains in the morning, just getting out there on the training pitch. I noticed a few of those things.”
“Towards the last six months of playing, I wasn't actually being selected in the starting team anymore. Sometimes, I wasn't even on the bench.
“I was really taking a more backseat role. Initially for the ego, that's a massive hit.
“You've been so integral in a team and now, all of a sudden, you're on the outskirts. I took that as a lesson too.
“In a lot of ways, the guys that weren't being selected, there was like little pockets of negativity outside of that.
“It was like, 'oh, the coach is not selecting me, he's a dick' that kind of thing. I've known this because I was a senior player; I knew how that kind of energy is not going to take this team further.
“At that moment that I started to do research and literature into different healing and spiritual practice, specifically with Buddhism.
“I wanted to research more about that because I couldn't really realise, how am I feeling right now?
“At the end of my playing days, I had one or two other opportunities. Come back and play for the Sharks in Durban and I also had an opportunity to continue another year in France.
“I was coming to a point where I thought to myself, I've given everything to this club. I've given it the max that I could. I was like, 'Okay, so how can I transform this energy that I'm feeling of not being in the team, of my ego being a bit bruised?'
“I thought to myself, 'No, I'm going to transform this, I'm going to go to training with a smile on my face, I'm going to hold the bags and I'm going to be there for the boys.'
“That didn't really change for me, the whole six months towards the end. I really feel that transmuted a lot of that energy that I was feeling, because it hurts.
“It's like, you want to be there with the boys, but there was a whole bunch of Toulon players that were coming through, specifically in the loose forward positions.
“These young kids were coming through and a 21-year-old versus a 34-year-old, it's a different energy being on the bench. All I could do in that moment was be in acceptance of this.
“I had an amazing ride and I was really grateful and privileged to be there. That positive energy the boys went through in that 2013/14 season, in the last six months we went on to win the Top 14 and the European Cup.
“It was huge and I'm just really grateful that I could be part of the foundation and getting the team to that point where they ended up just winning everything.”
Three years ago, van Niekerk and his life partner, Marie, found Rama Organica and built a happy life for themselves in South America.
Rama Organica, on their website say: “Our mission is to empower humans to get in touch with themselves by connecting with nature. We hold a safe container for those looking to do the deep work required for lasting transformation”
You can tell from our conversation, behind dreadlocks that are a bit different to the scrum cap he used to don, that he takes this message to heart and looks to help people better themselves in whatever form.
To put it simply, a really nice bloke.
He admits: “It's perhaps not the conventional route through for a lot of players. For me specifically, I definitely took my lessons from what I learned in those last six months playing.
“It kind of inspired me to look further into a spiritual life. You're looking at some of those practices specifically just for the body, to heal the body. It can be supremely traumatic when a player ends his rugby career.
“Just being with the boys, the banter that goes on, the constant giggles, the laughs, the sharing the team ethos, the camaraderie, all of these things play a part in an experience so rich.
“The ups and downs too. There's all of this but there's another way in life and for me specifically, I was really interested in in searching within for those answers and the loss of identity.
“Now I'm not in the press and I'm not in the media. I took a five year sabbatical from social networks and just basically being completely out of the frame.
For two years after I finished I went into solitude, and for two years I basically just was busy with different healing techniques, specifically for the body.
“Obviously, from rugby, we had aches and pains and all sorts of injuries through most of that life.
I was really inspired look at how can we regenerate the body that we've used and that's been such a blessing to get to that and getting past losing rugby in a sense.
“I lost an identity but then rediscovered who I truly was and am.
“It was about realising that I am enough, that my rugby career is just an aspect and was just a part of myself. Being able to play that game was such a blessing and an honour. I was in so much gratitude for that.
“I didn't really need to be written about in the magazines or press or all of these things, just be here.
“Realising that and going through that process, that's led me to a completely different way of life that is more in communion with nature.
“Now we live in the jungle and we own an organic farm, which is actually a healing sanctuary.
“We do wellness retreats, for people to come out and be here for seven days where they go through different healing modalities.
“I think a lot of times we get caught in our minds and our personal story and we forget that we actually are love.
“We are compassion, we are wisdom, we have all of these essences of the soul within us. It's just about reigniting that. Sometimes we get caught in that drama and then we identify with it, and it's not true.
“It's just been a really humbling process, of course, because playing rugby for all those years and now coming through the process of losing that identity, it can be pretty traumatic.
“I think a lot of players struggle with that when they get to the end of their career.
Question is, will he look to get back into the game he loves?
“I still feel that I have a lot to give to rugby. I don't know in what kind of sphere I'll be able to give back.
“It was about a year ago when we went to India and we shot a thing with Jonny Wilkinson for Societe Generale and I went with Thierry Dusuatoir and we went to visit the Indian Women's Rugby Team.
“We spent some time with them and we did some coaching, we did some playing with and that was really super fulfilling being able to go there and see how the game is growing in different parts of the globe.
“To really give back in that way was great. I'm super passionate about the game and I really love being in the team environment and the dynamics of any team and how that operates.
“I'm still super motivated and I love rugby and I'm passionate about it so I don't close my doors on anything. Maybe in some stage of life, I might be part of a team again.”
Knowing Joe van Niekerk’s incredible journey, who would bet against it?
This article includes excerpts from an episode The Flanker podcast featuring Joe van Niekerk, with the interview conducted by Jack Colwill, Tom Hitchenor and Christy O’Brien.
Listen to the full episode via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher and Google Podcasts now or use the link below.